Artest signs with the Lakers - Jersey #37

[arlubas]

Originally Posted by тояоито яаρтσяѕ

George wasn't niice, and Payton+Malone were in the final year or 2 of their careers. Where as these players are in their prime and on top of their games

Do you remember the kind of teams they had to throw out of the POs in order to get to the finals that year? That team was as legit as can be and having Devin George in it doesn't take anything away from the kind of quality guys they had. Oh and Malone was as good as any dude his age could've been, far far from a wash up.

But anyway let's not take this convo into another topic, let's keep talking about Artest.

[Chronz]

Originally Posted by gold_leader64

Wait...what?

"That’s justified for Bryant, but not for Artest. "

Kobe has a considerable amount of poor shooting nights, but he takes far more and it has a larger impact on the game. When he shoots 8-27, it hurts more than a 3-13 effort. I don't see what the big deal is.

It was merely a circumstantial jab, its not ok for anyone to ever have poor nights and still hog the ball, but when comparing Kobe to Artest, Kobe has actual reasons for shooting, him being the best scorer in the league gives him that kind of green light, even if it may lose them games, it wins them many more, atleast when compared to Artest. Artest won the Rockets games with his ballhoggery, but hes more prone to shooting them out of it than a guy like Kobe, therefore justifying his relative ballhoggery is impossible. The amount of low efficient nights (not just shooting) between the 2 isnt even close, Artest has much more of them.

Anyways, if thats your main focus on the subject your missing the big picture.

The difference is Ron isn't going to jack up 20-30 shots at 30-40%.Gasol, the second option last season, only got 13 FGA per game, and that was with the Lakers ignoring him in the offense. So I doubt Ron gets 13+ FG's per game. If Andy is healthy, and Odom returns, the touches will balance out and I doubt Artest will have that many opportunities to screw up the offense. Phil won't let that happen.

Believe me Pelton knows this better than you or I, hes pointing out the fact that Artest is essentially replacing a guy who rarely looked to create his own shot so any shot he does decide to create on his own, outside of the offense isnt likely to be as good of a shot as Ariza would have created from his off the ball roaming. There is nothing Phil can do about this, its all on Artest.

I like that you mentioned Pau, he improved his efficiency by virtue of taking quality shots alone, I wouldnt say they completely ignored him, it certainly looked that way in the playoffs though. Still what Pau did, is what you should expect from a star player, its how you can spot the frauds that put up gaudy per game averages on bad teams, from the quality players who are stuck in horrible situations, they are efficient on there own, but when surrounded with quality teammates, raise their efficiency to higher levels.

What Pelton is questioning, is whether Artest could adapt the way Pau did, if he doesnt it gos back to this: The Lakers are trading more efficient possessions from Ariza and other players for less efficient ones.

With Ariza taking a few shots, it was never a question of fitting in, Artest can still bog down the offense as a 3rd option if hes not capable of replicating Ariza's efficiency in such a drastically reduced role.

Im sure Kobe will have to alter his game to make room for Artest, but are we sure thats a good thing?

Originally Posted by arlubas

First of all let's get this out the way from the get go. I didn't mean to say that Artest and Rodman have a similar game.

No need to get that out of the way, I never said you did. In fact it was obvious from the getgo that you werent comparing their games, just their mindsets. I dropped that the minute you questioned it because its really not that important to me. Im saying his switch is indeed more like Harpers because of the fact that they will have to alter how theyve played pretty much their entire careers. Rodman did change his game over the years, but that transition occurred in his Piston days.

But that doesn't mean that Artest is either the offensive thread Harper was in his pre-bulls days or the incompetent offensive dude Rodman was. He's somewhere in the middle and that's why I said he won't have to change his game very much, because he never was the go to guy on any team he has been.

I dont see how you could think hes somewhere in the middle. In the 3 years leading up to his Bulls defection, Harper accounted for roughly 24% of his teams (non-assist) possessions while on the court in excess of 38MPG. Artest has accounted for 24% of his teams possessions in like 37MPG. Now Im not saying Artest is going to undergo the same drastic transformation, because quite frankly I doubt hes capable of becoming a distributing specialist nor is he that far removed from his prime to warrant him falling out of average shot taking duties, but compared to Rodman who didnt have to change a thing about his game, its definitely not a comparison.

Unless by in the middle you mean a combination of having to have his mindset tempered by Phil (Ala Rodman) AND having to adjust his game (ala Harper) .

Still talking about Harper, why did he have to change his role so drastically, he basically became a deep reserve after becoming a total focal point his entire career.

As for him controlling the ball and creating for the teams he was in I can remember his Indiana days when he wasn't the main ball handler or shot creator. It was JO and Miller that did the scoring there and Tinsley who controlled the ball. That don't mean Artest was a nobody but he certainly wasn't THE man either (not until his 03-04 season at least).

True, for his early Indiana-Chicago years, like you mentioned the year they won 60+ games Carlisle took the ball less into the hands of Tinsley, and more into Artest's. There was talk about him and Jermaine feuding about who should get the most touches, anyways that was the birth of Artest's hoggery. Since then hes only played 1 way, his.

Either way, he certainly will have less shot opportunities with Kobe and Gasol on his team, I'm not debating that. I just never saw him as a hands down scorer either but rather a good and reliable 3rd string guy on offense for his teams (except when he was in Sacto where he was arguably their second best scorer so he did score plenty).

I never saw him as a reliable offensive player period least not in the elite sense, but yea thats basically all Im getting at. The fact that he will have to make room in his game for the Lakers stars, well either him or Kobe is going to have to make room for the other, and in either case it may bite them in the ass.

PG - Payton
SG - Bryant
SF - George
PF - Malone
C - Shaq

6th Man - Derek Fisher

Dream line up right? Had it not been for a Kobe improbable three they would've been swept in the Finals.

Point is, no matter how good a team is on paper, the game is played on the court and teams stacked with stars don't always ammount to a chip.

I know you werent talking to me but, on my paper, the Pistons had more talent with Malone injured. I never really understood what on paper meant, but shouldnt it include a players availability and productiveness? Usually when I hear people talk about talented teams on paper, and they go on to mention the Clippers and Thornton, I cant help but think its mostly names, and not a players game that is understood.

[DeAdLyPoTaTo]

Originally Posted by D54

Well Lakers fans are classless but being clueless is the bigger issue. Don't know why the f*ck you would associate me with anything you said...that's hardly the sh*t I care about.

.

Your just the forum's grouch. If anybody is gonna come in here and complain about something, its a good chance its you. I was just telling Imadogg to watch what he says for your own good, don't wanna get your blood pressure high cuz all you do is yell at people and make the kids cry

[black_prince]

^^^ just learn to ignore him coz hes a cancer.......................

[Kingsako32]

Ron Ron's gonna wear the number 37, as a tribute to Michael Jackson, because Thriller was #1 for 37 weeks.

[arlubas]

Originally Posted by Chronz

Still talking about Harper, why did he have to change his role so drastically, he basically became a deep reserve after becoming a total focal point his entire career.

I really have no idea how that transition happened (in mindset). I mean the guy was a legit 20+ ppg guy in the league and was a great player both in his Clippers and Cavs days and all of a sudden we see him playing the reliable ball distributor, what the hell? Then again he possibly started thinking that if you're gonna play in the L it might as well be for you to go all the way. Good on him though, he did pretty good for himself.

Originally Posted by Chronz

I know you werent talking to me but, on my paper, the Pistons had more talent with Malone injured. I never really understood what on paper meant, but shouldnt it include a players availability and productiveness? Usually when I hear people talk about talented teams on paper, and they go on to mention the Clippers and Thornton, I cant help but think its mostly names, and not a players game that is understood.

On paper means how skilled each guy is from the starting five of a team individually and not taking into account at all how or if those players can click on the floor together. Like for example last season's Suns team was stacked with big name players but that team could barely play on a high level mainly because those players' games didn't complement each other.

Originally Posted by Kingsako32

Ron Ron's gonna wear the number 37, as a tribute to Michael Jackson, because Thriller was #1 for 37 weeks.

Now that's randomness at it's finest (not on your part, on Ron's one).

[Chronz]

Originally Posted by arlubas

I really have no idea how that transition happened (in mindset). I mean the guy was a legit 20+ ppg guy in the league and was a great player both in his Clippers and Cavs days and all of a sudden we see him playing the reliable ball distributor, what the hell? Then again he possibly started thinking that if you're gonna play in the L it might as well be for you to go all the way. Good on him though, he did pretty good for himself.

I was hoping Det could shine some light on the subject, all I remember from back then was picking up a new fleer Harper card with the Bulls, looking at the stats on the back and salivating at the thought of him with Pippen. Then he went on to play 20MPG, like WTF.

As I grew older though, I began to realize he wasnt as good as I thought. I know he was a Clipper and everything, got us as far as we've been in years, but his peak came with the Cavs, when he got to us there was talk about him bein past his prime I believe, and looking at his efficiency, if he wasnt such a good passer, there wouldnt be much separating him from Thornton.

On paper means how skilled each guy is from the starting five of a team individually and not taking into account at all how or if those players can click on the floor together. Like for example last season's Suns team was stacked with big name players but that team could barely play on a high level mainly because those players' games didn't complement each other.

Isnt that more the coaches fault? Because Porter along with Amare's injury is the only thing that prevented them from complimenting eachother Fully. When they ran, they won, when they played like Porter wanted, they lost.

[HaRdKoRexRoCkEr]

ariza did a lot of the intangibles to help the lakers win. artest isn't the defender he was before, but he gives the lakers another scoring option...do they really need that?

[reverence]

Originally Posted by тояоито яаρтσяѕ

imagine this 5 on the floor together

PG - Kobe
SG - Ron
SF - Odom
PF - Gasol
C - Bynum

oh my gooddness

kobe playing the point??

[SmartBum]

I want Ariza back, **** Artest.