Obama: Kobe or Mike

[flawless victory]

The only thing Pippen couldn't do as well as MJ was score. Pippen was as good, if not better, at defense, rebounding, and assists.

But he wasn't one of the best sidekicks ever either. Drexler to Hakeem, Dr J to Moses Malone, Wes Unseld to Elvin Hayes, Shaq to Wade, were all better, in addition to the ones you named.

Paul Pierce to KG, John Havlicek to Bill Russell are a couple more.

[mixtapelive]

Originally Posted by flawless victory

The only thing Pippen couldn't do as well as MJ was score. Pippen was as good, if not better, at defense, rebounding, and assists.

you realize your posts have no credibility after you said this

Jordan wasn't even the best player on his own team, let alone of all-time. Scottie Pippen was the true LEADER of those Bulls championship teams. FACT

[detrimental]

Flawless fail.

[flawless victory]

Originally Posted by mixtapelive

you realize your posts have no credibility after you said this

I don't see how, I said that all Jordan was better than Pippen at is scoring. Pippen was the better rebounder and distributor. Defensively they're about the same, Pippen the better shot blocker, and a more versatile defender, while Jordan could play lock down defense as well, and was better at getting steals. Pippen was also the true LEADER of that team. It's not like I'm stating opinions either. Everything I've said on the subject is a 100% FACT.

[detrimental]

Originally Posted by flawless victory

I don't see how, I said that all Jordan was better than Pippen at is scoring.

Jordan was so much more effective as a scorer alone that it made anything that Pippen might've done better on offense in your eyes absolutely moot.

Pippen was the better rebounder and distributor.

False. Pippen's years as a focal point for offensive distribution (mainly '94 onward) were nowhere near as effective as Jordan's. Pippen was also a better rebounder because he was often switching between the 3 and 4, and was a focal point for such play due to Jordan baring the vast majority of the scoring load. Bill Walton referred to Jordan as one of the all-time great rebounders based on his timing and positioning alone. Had Jordan have had half of the opportunities for rebounds as Pippen, you'd be singing a different tune.

Defensively they're about the same, Pippen the better shot blocker, and a more versatile defender, while Jordan could play lock down defense as well, and was better at getting steals.

Pippen's best shot blocking years don't really compare, so I'm not sure where you're coming from with this. They both played a similar style in that regard, help-side blocks or straight-up blocks that lead to fast breaks. Pippen was more versatile in that he could guard the 4, true, but Michael also had times where he'd be boxed up with Karl Malone, even a couple of times where he bodied up Vlade Divac in the post.

As for versatility, why is it that nobody remembers Jordan guarding the point guard position in '96 because Pippen was continuously getting burnt in that role before Jordan come back? Jordan had to lock down the league's fastest players because Pippen just couldn't hang, this all while maintaining the same scoring load. Checking Damon Stoudamire and dropping 36 points is much harder than playing bumpity-bump on a SF while distributing to a team full of veterans.

Should be noted that I've got Scottie and Michael neck-and-neck in the defensive department (both prime that is... I'll take Jordan for career)

Pippen was also the true LEADER of that team.

There's not a single person that played on those Bulls teams that would come even close to agreeing with you. The only fragment of season where this were even remotely true was the beginning of the '96 season where Michael wasn't so dominate, personality-wise, as he was still settling in. We all know how that season ended up as it went along, Pippen ended up holding onto the cape again. Both in terms of play, and vocal and demonstrative leadership.

It's not like I'm stating opinions either. Everything I've said on the subject is a 100% FACT.

Flawless fail. Please make that your username immediately.

[DaGettoMan]

Of course Jordan was the better player, but I still think Pippen was the greatest side-kick. He didn't need the spotlight. Look, a few names have been thrown out at me, but they're all superstars. Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, Magic, maybe David Robinson. But Pippen didn't need the spotlight. He was ok with MJ being the main man, and flying under the radar. He was the perfect 2nd guy, just like Lamar Odom right now is your perfect 3rd guy. They can't take over on theirselves, but once they have a better player before them, they can do the dirty work and ****. So when you're talking about maybe not side-kicks, but role-players, Pippen is the best.

[detrimental]

Originally Posted by DaGettoMan

Of course Jordan was the better player, but I still think Pippen was the greatest side-kick. He didn't need the spotlight. Look, a few names have been thrown out at me, but they're all superstars. Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, Magic, maybe David Robinson. But Pippen didn't need the spotlight. He was ok with MJ being the main man, and flying under the radar. He was the perfect 2nd guy, just like Lamar Odom right now is your perfect 3rd guy. They can't take over on theirselves, but once they have a better player before them, they can do the dirty work and ****. So when you're talking about maybe not side-kicks, but role-players, Pippen is the best.

David Robinson was as much a superstar as any of the other names you listed. There's an obvious note here that barely any of you were around to observe any of what you were talking about, especially flawless victory. If you weren't around to know about it, or haven't bothered to learn about it, then don't talk about it.

Anyway, while Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, Magic and David were all superstars at some stage of their career, they were also critical second-fiddle men. Magic is the hardest to make the case for, he pretty much took over the reigns after his initial Finals series in many respects (following the injury).

People tend to overrate Pippen based on his "role playing" ability. His role playing ability is as much a product of Jordan's leadership as it was his own inability to himself be a true leader. The shadow was cast because of his inequities as a standalone leader. His game was perfectly suited to be that second-fiddle man for a monstrous first-man option like Jordan. So while you might give him all the credit in the world for having the reluctance to "be the man", if it weren't for Jordan it might well be the greatest downfall of his career.

[flawless victory]

Originally Posted by detrimental

Flawless fail.

That about sums up pretty much all of what you said. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL @ you!

Pippen was the true LEADER. MJ did nothing w/o Pippen.
Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins and a playoff series win w/o Jordan in 94 and
led the Bulls in pts, rebs, asts, stls, and blks in 95, and was still leading the Bulls to a winning record that year, 2 things that Jordan was NEVER able to do w/o Pippen.

Pippen was a better all around player than Jordan.

Pippen career minutes played: 41069
Jordan career minutes played: 41013

Pippen career assists: 6135
Jordan career assists: 5633

Pippen career rebounds: 7494
Jordan career rebounds: 6672

Pippen career blocks: 947
Jordan career blocks: 893

Jordan barely edged him out in steals and had him in points, but that was because he was the BIGGEST BALLHOG IN NBA HISTORY. Pippen was the one that made his teammates better, not MJ.

"Jordan always felt Pippen was something special," longtime Bulls assistant Tex Winter said. "Michael realized how easy it was to play with him and how he helped make his teammates better. It's often said Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen needed Jordan. I'm not sure Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan."

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Pippen > Jordan

Simple...Jordan never had a winning season on his own.

PIPPEN won 6 rings and took Jordan along for the ride.

There is a reason that Scottie Pippen is 2nd in playoff games (to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) and why Pippen only had ONE losing season in 17 years.

There is also a reason that Michael Jordan NEVER had a winning season without Pippen and never won a single playoff game without Pippen.

Here:

This is how Jordan fared in the playoffs without Pippen:


1984-85 Chicago Bulls

Franchise Index: Previous Season / Next Season

38-44, Finished 3rd in NBA Central Division (Game Results)

View League Season Summary

Playoffs:

Lost East Conf 1st Rd (3-1) to Milwaukee Bucks

1985-86 Chicago Bulls

Franchise Index: Previous Season / Next Season

30-52, Finished 4th in Central Division (Game Results)

View League Season Summary

Playoffs:

Lost East Conf 1st Rd (3-0) to Boston Celtics


1986-87 Chicago Bulls

Franchise Index: Previous Season / Next Season

40-42, Finished 5th in Central Division (Game Results)

View League Season Summary

Playoffs:

Lost East Conf 1st Rd (3-0) to Boston Celtics

For those of you scoring at home:

Jordan without Pippen…

1) Never won a NBA championship.

2) Never had a winning regular season. (most wins in any season was 40)

3) Never won a single playoff series. (attended the playoffs in 3 out of 5 seasons that he played without Pippen and did not win a single playoff series compiled an 0-3 playoff series record)

4) Never advanced out of the first round of the playoffs.

5) Compiled a losing regular season record (182-228) and a losing playoff game record (1-9 in playoff games; 0-3 in playoff series).

Tell me why the “greatest NBA player of all time” could not compile a winning record on his own when he played on teams with the likes of George Gervin (NBA Hall of Famer), Charles Oakley (solid performer), Richard Hamilton (won a NBA championship without Jordan), Orlando Woolridge (won a NBA championship without Jordan), and Jerry Stackhouse. These are members of the Bulls’ teams before Pippen’s arrival and of the Wizards teams without Pippen. I throw this out to stop Jordan supporters that say that he didn’t have any talent around him.

After all, Jordan supporters are quick to point out that without Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen…

1) Never won a NBA championship.

However, Pippen compiled a 20-24 record in playoff games without Jordan and was 3-6 in playoff series without Jordan. Who is better in the playoffs, the regular season, per 48 minutes, and in raw numbers?

Scottie Pippen! Game set match.

[srtfinest]

damn!!! Detrimental your really crazy. All those arguments you make for mike over scottie could be use for Kobe over Lebron huh?..And the nerve to try to shortchange Scottie's game to make MJ look that much better WOW.. Scottie is the best defender ever..he could guard the pg to the power forward and lock them Down...Mike said he wish he had the wingspan and length of scottie pip. The bulls won 57 games in the 92-93 season with MJ..and the next without won 55 games, I think Scottie played a huge part. Phil put Scottie and MJ at positions so they can do what they do best. Scottie was the facilator and defender...some pull up threes and a monster on the fastbreak..oh and he the one cat that started that blocking **** off the backboard that Lebron does now..that the kids go so crazy over. PPL under 30 with a brain please watch some old bulls games you will be amazed by Scottie Pippen... He was simply a superstar that did what was best for the team. And all the bulls player said Scottie was truely the team Leader. Mike was cussing out cats..going crazy..punching Kerr..dissing Stacey King...ruined Brad Sellers...Mike was a leader by his play..scottie was running that offense...and Defense. And what point guard was Mike locking down?...little point guards by 96 Killed MIKE...tim hardaway ..gary payton.. damon stoudamire didn't he light up the bulls so bad he put one of the 10 losses on the bulls that season? lol bad example. And penny hardaway use to destroy mike.(when healthy) This guy used BILL Walton as his source wtf?! do you follow charles barkley too? Detrimental, change your name to Delusional. EVERY ****ING ARGUMENT YOU MAKE FOR MIKE, anybody could make for KOBE, but you hate kobe?!.. you must be a woman and want to make sweet love to MJ..

[Chronz]

Originally Posted by flawless victory

I don't see how, I said that all Jordan was better than Pippen at is scoring. Pippen was the better rebounder and distributor. Defensively they're about the same, Pippen the better shot blocker, and a more versatile defender, while Jordan could play lock down defense as well, and was better at getting steals. Pippen was also the true LEADER of that team. It's not like I'm stating opinions either. Everything I've said on the subject is a 100% FACT.

I remember when I applied a similar stance on Kobe vs Pippen bout 5 years ago, man I was dumb.

Pippen could be better at every aspect of the game, but MJ's offensive superiority is such that it wont matter. When you talk about a player having only 1 edge in his game over the other, when that edge happens to be scoring the ball, it better be a close comparison to warrant the nod, MJ vs Pip, not even close. MJ isnt just a better scorer than Pippen, hes a better scorer than anyone to have ever laced em up.

Originally Posted by srtfinest

damn!!! Detrimental your really crazy. All those arguments you make for mike over scottie could be use for Kobe over Lebron huh?..

Which ones?